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lethe

ObamaCare

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I'm surprised that no one has posted on the recent U.S. court decision regarding Obama's health plans, seeing as there have been so many posts here from people with ""pre-existing conditions" who are now eligible for health care...... Perhaps the news hasn't "filtered down" yet, or people are too busy jumping for joy still to respond..... :?

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I'm still in shock that Roberts just gave us the biggest tax increase and the biggest job killer health plan in history. November 3, 2012 gives me hope… there is a better way to help people with "pre-existing conditions".

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I didn't find any reason in the decision to jump for joy even though I am one of the millions of American's who currently have no insurance. I also have no wish to get into a huge political arguement on this particular forum. We all probably have enough stress in our lives. I have five young adult children and I'm not thrilled that they will all now be required to buy health insurance that they don't need (or the IRS will collect a penalty through taxes) so that I might be able to get some rationed care for my pre-existing condition.

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Beautiful Sunday morning here. The sea is calm and tide should be coming in soon. Weekend July on coastal Georgia. Coolers, kids, and noodle salad. Coconut butter in the air. Church bells competing with each other. And not one or two- an island full. I enjoy them all.

After politics, we could do religion.

 

Nope. Dog's "jumping" at the door. I gotta go.

 

roy g

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Beautiful Sunday morning here. The sea is calm and tide should be coming in soon. Weekend July on coastal Georgia. Coolers, kids, and noodle salad. Coconut butter in the air. Church bells competing with each other. And not one or two- an island full. I enjoy them all.

After politics, we could do religion.

 

Nope. Dog's "jumping" at the door. I gotta go.

 

roy g

 

Amen, Brother Roy!

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In Canada, we all enjoy a complete health care package, regardless of employment or position in society paid through taxes. Delivered throughout the country to everyone. I could not imagine living without such a program. Perfect, no. But a very comforting way to live. I hope yours grows to be acceptable to all.

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I didn't find any reason in the decision to jump for joy even though I am one of the millions of American's who currently have no insurance. I also have no wish to get into a huge political arguement on this particular forum. We all probably have enough stress in our lives. I have five young adult children and I'm not thrilled that they will all now be required to buy health insurance that they don't need (or the IRS will collect a penalty through taxes) so that I might be able to get some rationed care for my pre-existing condition.

I didn't find any reason in the decision to jump for joy even though I am one of the millions of American's who currently have no insurance. I also have no wish to get into a huge political arguement on this particular forum. We all probably have enough stress in our lives. I have five young adult children and I'm not thrilled that they will all now be required to buy health insurance that they don't need (or the IRS will collect a penalty through taxes) so that I might be able to get some rationed care for my pre-existing condition.

 

It will obviously be awhile before the details are worked out and a clearer picture of what Obamacare entails for the working person. Insurance is like a crap-shoot and yu pay hoping you never need it.

 

Here in Canada as fellow canuk b49 mentioned, health care is free for all. Four years ago when I had the bad reaction to meds I stayed in hospital longer than a week, had 2 health care people for an hour each everyday, etc. I'm now on disability. If i was in most other countries I'd be on the streets now.

 

Our health care is one of the strongest unifying factors, treating all as equals.

Edited by lethe
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I’m against this “Health Care Law” because I have zero faith that our government can even begin to tackle the healthcare problem in a fair and reasonable manner. Yes, it’s shameful that we have people in America who NEED medical care and can’t get it but that problem didn’t arise because the Government was unable to extort enough money from the people. Until this Government can show some restraint in how it spends the money it takes from the citizens, I’m going to resist them at every opportunity I get. At least with private health insurance, you have legal recourse and as a last resort you can go to the Government for some muscle. But when the Government is conspiring with the insurance carrier who is conspiring with the health care provider, the people will surely get the short end of the stick. I’m happy for the Canadians, they apparently have something that works for them but they have had many years to tweak and refine the system and they do not have the political climate we do. What’s truly shameful is while people who really need medical attention go without, our Government squanders money on failed ideologically motivated programs, crony capitalism, and by giving “Aid” to countries who actively work against free world values. The problem is not rich people, greedy capitalists, Socialists, or even the dreaded Canadian system it’s every American who sits idly by while our politicians squander money, erode personal freedoms, pervert the Constitution to fit their political agenda, all while make themselves rich. More Government is not the solution; at best it’s a bandage covering the festering pustule called tyranny.

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I learned a long time ago that if nothing changes, nothing changes. When you know you need to do something but don't know exactly what that would be, you do something different and see how it turns out. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

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Do you think the government is good at saving money? do you think the government is good at efficiency? this nation is in tremendous debt which tells me the government does not know how to work within a budget. And people want the government run the healthcare system?

 

Why don't we first nationalize the legal system first? Everybody needs a good lawyer sometime in their life, and lawyers make lots of money so let us tax the snot out of them and make all the lawyers government workers. If a lawyer used to make $300 an hour they can give $275 to the Government and keep $25 for themselves. so the next time you need a lawyer you contact the post office and you stand in line and wait your turn. don't worry... they work real fast at the post office. And remember the government is in control now so you don't have any other options. just stand in line and wait.

 

Seriously something does need to be done. but when someone tells you you have to pass a bill before you could read what's in it, like Nancy Pelosi did... well I just think there's something fishy about that bill.

 

To be perfectly honest I don't trust my government when it comes to spending money. And people wonder why I don't want the government to run my healthcare

 

I'm happy for the Canadians. but Americans are not Canadians. We have a lot more people, the largest military on the face of the earth, and the best Constitution ever written we simply need to follow it.

 

There's an important point... Life isn't fair and there is no such thing as a free lunch. somebody's paying for it.

Edited by Luthersfaith

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After entering the healthcare system as a second career, I was truly appalled when I learned firsthand how our system really works. The abuse by EVERYONE - from doctors to lawyers, drug companies to individual patients - is absolutely astounding! I am not a political person and I have no idea how to fix it, but I can assure you that there is no way this system can continue without bankrupting us all. And whether you realize it or not, we already have socialized medicine. In addition to taxes, everybody pays more for their care in order to compensate for the uninsured. However, in my opinion, the problem is not the uninsured, but those on any form of public healthcare (medicare, medicaid, disability, etc) who feel a sense of entitlement and run to the emergency room every time they get a runny nose. Plus the doctors who admit them to the hospital every other week and bill for numerous unneeded expensive tests and procedures just because they know it's a guaranteed paycheck. Plus the lawyers who sue at the drop of a hat that make the doctors run extra unneeded tests just to protect themselves. Plus the family members who bring their 90 year old loved one who has severe dementia and end stage renal disease from the nursing home and insist that they receive open-heart bypass surgery, only to watch them suffer in the hosptial for the last 6 months of their lives.

 

I could go on and on with actual stories of waste and abuse even in my own family, but the point is that it is a multi-faceted problem that runs in a vicious circle. And if we don't do something about it soon, it's liable to ruin us all.

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...

I could go on and on with actual stories of waste and abuse even in my own family, but the point is that it is a multi-faceted problem that runs in a vicious circle. And if we don't do something about it soon, it's liable to ruin us all.

 

Very well said.

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Mistrust--Or what some call " Paranoia" often originates from experience.

I should have heeded Dianne’s advice & avoided this topic.

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I would not avoid a topic for fear of conflicting views. Everyone should be able to voice an opinion and remain respectful to everyone elses" That is the problem with debate. We as Parky's should address and embrace this topic. Lethe, my fellow Canadian, even though we disagree about legalizing MJ, brought it up.

 

We have only had universal health care for all in Canada since the 60's. It was born from nothing other than need as seen by a social democrat in the Canadian Praries (Google Tommy Douglas) which is actually in a pretty conservative part of the country. As for cost, The American Auto industry realises that our auto workers are better covered at a lesser price than the Americans are under the private system,

 

As Lethe says it is a great leveler of society. The blue chip worker sits with the the labourers in the line. It is regulated by rules with input from the doctors, nurses and society. It has its abuses and abusers as Rn suggests. But if the price to cut out all the abusers is to eliminate care for the marginal segments of society that would choose between an operation or eating for a year, I'll help pay for the abuses., willingly.

 

At the start of this forum stuff I was shocked. No almost embarrassed that I had everything paid for, no waiting for an MRI, or a dr visit cause of a cash shortage. I wished that my friends had the umbrella we enjoy. The underlying argument seems to be that you don't trust the government and I understand that, However I do point out that you trust your government with your military, police, schools, agricultural programs, immigration policy and this lists goes on. Why would you not trust them with this package. There will be some waste, granted. But there will be great things too. I worry about those who don't have coverage and debate medical decisions thinking of dollars. There is a way to accommodate all and I hope things work out.

 

Stay respectful of all is a good start.

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After entering the healthcare system as a second career, I was truly appalled when I learned firsthand how our system really works. The abuse by EVERYONE - from doctors to lawyers, drug companies to individual patients - is absolutely astounding! I am not a political person and I have no idea how to fix it, but I can assure you that there is no way this system can continue without bankrupting us all. And whether you realize it or not, we already have socialized medicine. In addition to taxes, everybody pays more for their care in order to compensate for the uninsured. However, in my opinion, the problem is not the uninsured, but those on any form of public healthcare (medicare, medicaid, disability, etc) who feel a sense of entitlement and run to the emergency room every time they get a runny nose. Plus the doctors who admit them to the hospital every other week and bill for numerous unneeded expensive tests and procedures just because they know it's a guaranteed paycheck. Plus the lawyers who sue at the drop of a hat that make the doctors run extra unneeded tests just to protect themselves. Plus the family members who bring their 90 year old loved one who has severe dementia and end stage renal disease from the nursing home and insist that they receive open-heart bypass surgery, only to watch them suffer in the hosptial for the last 6 months of their lives.

 

I could go on and on with actual stories of waste and abuse even in my own family, but the point is that it is a multi-faceted problem that runs in a vicious circle. And if we don't do something about it soon, it's liable to ruin us all.

 

Some believe that health care changed for the worse when men realized money could be made from it. Originally "health care" was the domain of women. It has since gone from a predominately nurturing role to a more invasive approach. Here is an interesting article:

 

http://tmh.floonet.net/articles/witches.html

 

A snippet of article:

Anarchism and Feminism: The Earliest Practitioners

 

An early 1970s left feminist interpretation of Malleus Maleficarum is the centerpiece of this essay by Barbara Ehrenreich and Deidre English. It sets the tone for a dark story of the co-optation by men of medicine as practiced by women from the earliest times and the subsequent alienation, persecution, and subjugation of such women with the rise of the male-dominated "medical profession." The tragic irony of this tale is that all the good about that profession came from the independent "wise women" of olde. Originally published by The Feminist Press at CUNY.

Witches, Midwives, and Nurses

A History of Women Healers

by Barbara Ehrenreich and Deirdre English

Introduction

Women have always been healers. They were the unlicensed doctors and anatomists of western history. They were abortionists, nurses and counsellors. They were pharmacists, cultivating healing herbs and exchanging the secrets of their uses. They were midwives, travelling from home to home and village to village. For centuries women were doctors without degrees, barred from books and lectures, learning from each other, and passing on experience from neighbor to neighbor and mother to daughter. They were called "wise women" by the people, witches or charlatans by the authorities. Medicine is part of our heritage as women, our history, our birthright.

 

Today, however, health care is the property of male professionals. Ninety-three percent of the doctors in the US are men; and almost all the top directors and administrators of health institutions. Women are still in the overall majority—70 percent of health workers are women—but we have been incorporated as workers into an industry where the bosses are men. We are no longer independent practitioners, known by our own names, for our own work. We are, for the most part, institutional fixtures, filling faceless job slots: clerk, dietary aide, technician, maid.

 

When we are allowed to participate in the healing process, we can do so only [as] nurses. And nurses of every rank from aide up are just "ancillary workers" in relation to the doctors (from the Latin ancilla, maid servant). From the nurses' aide, whose menial tasks are spelled out with industrial precision, to the "professional" nurse, who translates the doctors' orders into the aide's tasks, nurses share the status of a uniformed maid service to the dominant male professionals.

 

Our subservience is reinforced by our ignorance, and our ignorance is enforced. Nurses are taught not to question, not to challenge. "The doctor knows best." He is the shaman, in touch with the forbidden, mystically complex world of Science which we have been taught is beyond our grasp. Women health workers are alienated from the scientific substance of their work, restricted to the "womanly" business of nurturing and housekeeping—a passive, silent majority.

We are told that our subservience is biologically ordained: women are inherently nurse-like and not doctor-like. Sometimes

we even try to console ourselves with the theory that we were defeated by anatomy before we were defeated by men, that women have been so trapped by the cycles of menstruation and reproduction that they have never been free and creative agents outside their homes. Another myth, fostered by conventional medical histories, is that male professionals won out on the strength of their superior technology. According to these accounts, (male) science more or less automatically replaced (female) superstition—which from then on was called "old wives' tales."

 

But history belies these theories. Women have been autonomous healers, often the only healers for women and the poor. And we found, in the periods we have studied, that, if anything, it was the male professionals who clung to untested doctrines and ritualistic practices—and it was the women healers who represented a more humane, empirical approach to healing.

Our position in the health system today is not "natural." It is a condition which has to be explained. In this pamphlet we have asked: How did we arrive at our present position of subservience from our former position of leadership?

 

We learned this much: That the suppression of women health workers and the rise to dominance of male professionals was not a "natural" process, resulting automatically from changes in medical science, nor was it the result of women's failure to take on healing work. It was an active takeover by male professionals. And it was not science that enabled men to win out: The critical battles took place long before the development of modern scientific technology.

 

The stakes of the struggle were high: Political and economic monopolization of medicine meant control over its institutional organizations, its theory and practice, its profits and prestige. And the stakes are even higher today, when total control of medicine means potential power to determine who will live and will die, who is fertile and who is sterile, who is "mad" and who sane.

 

The suppression of female healers by the medical establishment was a political struggle, first, in that it is part of the history of sex struggle in general. The status of women healers has risen and fallen with the status of women When women healers were attacked, they were attacked as Women; when they fought back, they fought back in solidarity with all women.

It was a political struggle, second, in that it was part of a class struggle. Women healers were people's doctors, and their medicine was part of a people's subculture. To this very day

4

women's medical practice has thrived in the midst of rebellious lower class movements which have struggled to be free from the established authorities. Male professionals, on the other hand, served the ruling class—both medically and politically. Their interests have been advanced by the universities, the philanthropic foundations and the law. They owe their victory—not so much to their own efforts—but to the intervention of the ruling class they served.

This pamphlet represents a beginning of the research which will have to be done to recapture our history as health workers. It is a fragmentary account, assembled from sources which were usually sketchy and often biased, by women who are in no sense "professional" historians. We confined ourselves to western history, since the institutions we confront today are the products of western civilization. We are far from being able to present a complete chronological history. Instead, we looked at two separate, important phases in the male takeover of health care: the suppression of witches in medieval Europe, and the rise of the male medical profession in 19th century America.

To know our history is to begin to see how to take up the struggle again.

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Very well stated, JB. Where would the United States be today if the great debates of the 1770's had not taken place? The colonists were bitterly divided over the subjects of taxation and independence, among others, and those differences in opinion remained throughout the Revolutionary War - yet they managed to form the greatest nation on Earth today. Or what about the Constitutional Convention? The representatives there were far from being uanimous in their opinions, but they managed to debate and compromise until they drafted a document unparalleled in history. I think the key is, as JB stated, to be respectful of each other's opinions and to have the mindset that it's always about WHAT is right and not WHO is right.

 

With that being said, my personal opinion at this point, is that access to healthcare should be a basic right as a human-being and as a citizen. No one should have to go without healthcare in a nation as wealthy as ours - especially the fully insured working class citizen. THat's right, a person can have health insurance and still not have access to healthcare. Example:

 

A 52 year-old male comes to the ER with chest pain and, after receiving multiple tests including a Left Heart Catheterization, is admitted to the hospital for Coronary Artery Bypass Grafting (CABG). He has smoked since he was in his 20's, he has diabetes, and is morbidly obese. In other words, he hasn't been taking care of himself. He has been on disability for the past 20 years, but it's anyone's guess as to why as it isn't readily apparent and it isn't listed in his medical records. About 18 hours after surgery, his wife wheels him out of the Intensive Care Unit to go outside and smoke (the hospital allows this due to "patient satisfaction.") Once he is transferred out to the step-down unit where I work, he is on the call light every 15 minutes demanding one thing or another, and his wife loads his room up with regular, caffeinated soft drinks and snack cakes. His blood glucose readings stay in the upper 200's to low 300's, and he continues to go outside to smoke every 3-4 hours until discharged.

 

In another case, a 56 year-old female calls the ambulance twice a week - EVERY week - and comes to the ER complaining of chest pain. This has been going on for at least 6-7 years, and everyone in the ER knows her by name. She, too, has been on disability for 20+ years. Most of the time the doctors in the ER run an EKG and chest x-ray, give her some IV pain meds, then send her home. But every other week or so she manages to say the right things to get herself admitted. She gets a Left Heart Catheterization every couple of months which has yet to find any problems, but is a guaranteed paycheck for the cardiologists. While on the floor, she stays on the call light asking for snacks, pain meds, to have the thermostat turned up and down, and on and on. Keep in mind that I generally have four other patients to care for as well.

 

Both of these are true stories and I see these types of patients every single day that I work. And here's where I get so mad. I have to work to pay for my health insurance, my deductible, and my co-insurance. Most every day that I work I am in pain from my PD, but because of the deductible and co-insurance I can only afford to go to the doctor about every 3-4 months. Consequently, it is taking forever to get my meds adjusted. In addition, I will be losing my short-term disability this year due to the diagnosis of PD, and I will be disqualified for long-term disability when I become eligbile to purchase it next year because of a pre-existing condition.

 

On the other hand, these people don't have to pay one cent for their healthcare. They can go to the doctor or the ER anytime they want and never have to pay for anything. In fact, the government forcibly takes money out of my check (and YOUR check) to pay for their healthcare. (i.e. "socialized healthcare") And to top it all off, if I don't bring their drinks or pain meds or whatever fast enough, they can complain about me and I will get written up or fired for "lack of patient satisfaction." And when Medicare sends them their survey form, if they state that they were not satisfied with their care, Medicare will not reimburse the hospital (thus, the major emphasis on "patient satisfaction").

 

So, although I have worked my entire adult life and even though I am "fully insured" and pay my premiums, I still don't have unfettered access to the healthcare system. Yet, people who don't take care of themselves or are known drug-seekers get complete access under the current system. Where's the fairness in that?

 

To me, the only answer seems to be a national healthcare system that provides services in a fair manner. Because the federal government is generally immune from lawsuits, it would put an end to the vast amount of ridiculous lawsuits plaguing the system. Doctors would be less fearful of lawsuits and more fearful of being investigated for unneeded tests and procedures. Patients that are clearly riding or milking the system or that live high-risk lifestyles (e.g. smokers, heavy drinkers, drug addicts, morbidly obese, etc) would have reasonable limits placed on their care until they start taking personal responsibility for their own health. Those defrauding the system would face federal prosecution. And finally, more emphasis could be placed on preventative medicine to detect and treat diseases and conditions before they get bad and the cost of treatment goes up dramatically.

 

Again, I am always open to ideas and recognize that there may be better alternatives out there, but we need to at least start educating ourselves about the problem before we can figure out a way to fix it. Just my $2.00 worth (that's two cents adjusted for inflation).

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"Some believe that health care changed for the worse when men realized money could be made from it."

 

Partly true and partly false. People in the healthcare industry have every right to make a living from what they do, but capitalizing on and becoming extremely wealthy from other people's suffering is inherently wrong. However, in seeking profit, much research has been funded and many advances made in medicine.

 

The rest of the article is, in my opinion, a moot point. Regardless of how we got here or why, we are where we are. I can't change the past, but I can work towards changing the future. Thanks for sharing, though.

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It is clear from the postings here that many of us have strong opinions on the state of the healthcare system in the United States. As the Affordable Care Act is implemented, I would urge everyone to continue to stay engaged and to voice your opinions to those who are in a position to do something about it. I would also encourage those of you who are interested in this topic to read as much as you can about it. There is much misinformation and omitted information in the media and elsewhere about the United States healthcare system and about the Affordable Care Act. For example, although Medicare may be considered the "gold standard" for health care in the United States, it does not pay for any and all services and there are caps on the number of days of inpatient care it will cover. (And the federal government is regularly sued by patients and health care providers for not covering services that patients and providers would like it to pay for.) As another example, although most criticisms of the ACA focus on the federal government's role, the states are expected to be greatly involved in, among other things, establishing competitive insurance exchanges.

 

We are here on these forums to seek community as PWP and as caregivers. As JB reminded us, we can and will have differences of opinion but we can do so respectfully by not attacking one another or the professions that some of us may be proud to call our own.

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Our health care is one of the strongest unifying factors, treating all as equals.

 

It's wonderful that the health care system is working so well for you in Canada. The Canadian government and the US government are not the same I'm afraid. I know from personal experience that the US government has not treated all of it's citizens as equals in the past and highly doubt they aren't going to do so in the future either.

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