Summer adventure season starting

[swva 87]

Stump started this thread discussing fishing, kayaking, and hunting. Here's a thought! How about at the first inkling that you see something you don't like, stop reading and move on to the next post. What is wrong with people in today's society that thinks that everyone else should change to suit them?  People post stuff online every day that I don't agree with. If I don't like it, I don't read it.

Stump, keep on posting. I don't hunt much anymore, but I love eating game that my sister and niece bring home. They both got 8 point whitetails this weekend.

[ellaangel2 200]

Swva - Sometimes a picture is the first and only thing you see and one does not have a "chance" to "stop" the viewing.

If this was about "changing" to suit others, I could preach a sermon about killing animals for human pleasure.

I simply asked that a separate thread be made, not that Stump "changes."

[miracleseeker 688]

oh Stump.. I really did not see that coming.  Not cool. Sorry.

[stump 503]

OK.  For the future I'll have a thread for hunting separate from my other adventures.  This thread has pretty well run its course by now as there won't be much more in the way of adventures in the near term what with winter coming on.  My main point with this thread was to help inspire folks with PD to get out there and do things that are hard as a way of proving that this disease won't get the best of us.  At least not without a huge fight.

 

 

 

Ella, et al - I understand your concerns.  However I also look at this like swva as this was a thread I openly stated at the beginning would involve hunting, among other things.  A request, especially when it was apparent that I was heading out to make a separate thread might have been helpful.  And a few posts above the main hunting report included some discussions, so it shouldn't have been that much of a surprise that a full report of the hunt was coming.  

 

Let me ask those of you objecting to including that hunt report.  Are you vegan?  If you are, I take your criticisms sincerely.  A vegan that objects to hunting is at least consistent and I can respect that even if I disagree.  If not, then I must admit that is something of a pet peeve of mine.  When those that eat meat aren't willing to look honestly on the reality of the death of the animals that feed us it does somewhat offend me when they moralize negatively about my willingness to do so.  At the end of the day, everything not plant based we eat involves the death of something (and with typical industrial farming practices that produce most of our veggies and fruit a shocking number of animals die in that process too).  To tell me that I'm wrong for hunting and being open about where my food comes from while you are eating a burger, or chicken breast, or fish fillet, or whatever does grate.  

 

Also, the only pleasure taken in killing the elk was related to satisfaction in managing to outwit a creature that is notoriously difficult to get close enough to kill.  It took us 4 long hard days of working at it to find them and get close enough.  It was hardly a slam dunk, and frankly I'm surprised we succeeded when we did as the elk was totally keyed in on me, and I thought for sure they'd run before we could get within range.  We always say a prayer of thanks for the animal giving themselves up for our food needs.  The death itself is not the pleasure.  I also make every effort to use ALL of the animal and to throw away or leave for the scavengers as little as reasonably possible.  I save the hide and have it made into leather.  I save things like the heart and liver.  I save meat from the head most hunters simply discard.  I will be using the bones to make broth/stock.  I consider it my responsibility to do all of that as a means to honor the animal.  

 

Do you feel the same about livestock being killed for food?  If not, how is hunting, morally speaking, any different from killing of livestock?  If the objection is that wild animals allegedly suffer more in their death at the hands of a hunter, I submit 2 points in opposition.  Although this is "utilitarian" in ethics/philosophy, and I'm much more inclined to "deontological" philosophy, I'll run with it as I perceive most objections to be utilitarian in ethical basis.  First, knowing what happens in most slaughterhouses I don't think it's a given that livestock meet a reliably better ending.  Second, one must also consider how the wild animal would die in nature if the hunter didn't shoot it.  Given the choice only between being shot and dying the way most wild animals die I'd take the gunshot every time.  The alternative is starving to death during winter when there's not enough food to go around.  Or being taken out by coyotes or wolves or bears or cougars, none of which care over much for producing a fast, humane death or even waiting until the prey is even dead to start eating it.  Nature is anything but humane.  

[ellaangel2 200]

Stump, you definitely made some very interesting points.  I have heard many of them before.  I really cannot address all of them, my decision to oppose hunting is something I feel deep within and it is hard for me to express it on paper.  

I am a vegetarian, not a vegan.  The milk products, eggs that I consume do not involve killing of an animal, I pay 3x the normal cost for eggs to buy cage free eggs.  I go out of my way to make sure I am purchasing milk products from farms that treat the milking cows humanely.  I make every effort to dine at places that consider animal ethics; Chipoltes, Panera, to name a few.  

I do my best to live consistently with my beliefs.

One of the many issues I have with hunting is the "type" of meat that hunters feel the need to consume; I do not see the need to consume deer, elk, rabbit, squirrel, ostrich, etc., unless a human is starving in the Wilderness.  Meat eaters can also do their best to seek humanely treated slaughterhouses, factories, etc. for their meat.  Veal is another very sore subject with me.  To house veal calves in little huts on a short leash to keep them from building muscle and to keep them anemic so the human can enjoy tender, light colored meat is cruel at best.  We humans worry so much about our pleasures these days.  Why should needless pleasures come before the feelings of  a living, breathing animal?   Lamb is another meat I see no reason for.  If one is a meat eater, eliminating these particular "delicacy" meats should not be that much of a hardship.   I don't believe all animals should automatically be considered "fair game."  By killing these animals in the wild, you are taking away food sources from other animals.

An animal is wired instinctually for attacks from prey, not attacks from guns.  In my opinion, it is an unfair, unnatural death for an innocent, unassuming  animal in his natural environment to endure.

Maybe a bullet is a quicker death, but guns and bullets do not originate in nature, nor do they contribute to the "Circle of Life."  

Edited November 12, 2017 by ellaangel2

[Linda Garren 806]

Hi, Stump.  I'm not vegan.  Just an animal lover (and I know that most hunters are, too, and can separate hunting as a sport).   I would never mean to offend you, and sorry it turned out the way it has here.  It's always so nice to read of how much you love your adventures,and it makes me feel bad if this thread was spoiled by those of us who are very affected by any animal being hurt.  (And I'm aware that what we eat if often an animal that had to be slaughtered, so there is the irony.)   Maybe the answer is to just let us know if something is coming up in your posts about the kill part so that we can not click on your posts at that time.  

 

 

[Linda Garren 806]

And your last paragraph explaining the many ways animals in nature die is surely a valid thing to think about.  My dad used to say that nature in the raw is seldom kind, and that is so, so, so sadly true.

You're a good man, Stump.  And a good thinker and well spoken.  I have a lot of respect for you.

[stump 503]

Ella - I actually agree with you about things like veal.  I find it cruel and inhumane to treat cow like that.  I honestly even object in many ways to the way most beef is raised.  They're kept on feed lots where the only food they get is entirely unnatural to their nature, they are unable to escape their own waste, and roaming/exercise is simply not available.  

 

By contrast that elk was able to live a life of complete freedom to roam over tens of thousands of acres, seeking the food it is meant to consume rather than a grain diet that is harmful.  The only real issue I see with hunting is that if everyone did it there would be no game animals left and wild animals can't withstand the hunting pressure humans could put on them if it were a free-for-all.  So, I do support the regulatory restrictions on hunting that keep harvest numbers within sustainable levels.

 

Linda - No apology necessary.  We're adults here and we can have disagreements.  And thank you for your second post.

[LAD 313]

I was ready for some fall & winter adventures Stump! I read what I want to read... skip what I don't...

 

LAD

[stump 503]

28 minutes ago, LAD said:

I was ready for some fall & winter adventures Stump! I read what I want to read... skip what I don't...

 

LAD

Let's see here.  There's a trip to Oregon for Thanksgiving.  We're staying home for Christmas.  Maybe that trip to India in March-ish time frame if I don't jump jobs (slight possibility right now, but not holding my breath).  Not planning any fishing trips for a while.  Not a lot open that I'm interested in fishing for until spring, and what is open I'm not sure I really want to be out in the cold weather to chase them.  Most likely I won't get out fishing again until March or April.

 

I will be continuing to ride the exercise bike over the fall and winter so that in the spring/summer I can try to ride a century (100 mile bicycle ride).  Memorial Day weekend is the time for the Ski to Sea race in Bellingham.  I'd like to compete in either the road bike leg or kayak leg for that one.

 

But, if another adventure comes up I'll post up about it.

[LAD 313]

We are planning a trip to Nashville soon!

LAD

[Peace 174]

It was so nice to read posts with opposing views that were well thought out and respectful.  My big thing with hunting is that it be done humanely.  There are different qualities of hunters out there and not all are of your high quality Stump.  I would like to recommend a book that some of you may like.  It's Some We Love, Some We Hate, Some We Eat by Hal Herzog.  It's about why its so hard to think straight about animals.  It's been a few years since I've read it but I found it an interesting read.  With that said, I would vote for a separate thread labeled Hunting also as even though I eat meat, I do find it disconcerting to read or hear about a kill. Thank you Stump for your well thought out response.   I can't kill an animal but because I do consume some meat I'm glad someone can.  Temple Grandin has a book out called Animals Make Us Human.  She understands animals and works for their welfare and has made huge advancements in the slaughter industry.  She's a prime example of one who loves animals and advocates for their humane treatment by educating and implementing improved conditions in slaughter houses by reducing the fear and stress factors for the animals.  It's also a truly good read even for those strongly opposed to the killing of animals.  It really is possible to love them and eat them as odd as that sounds.

[Linda Garren 806]

Peace, I always enjoy reading your contributions.  They are so well written, and always kind. You've uplifted me at a crucial time or two when I really needed it. 

[ellaangel2 200]

Peace, I agree with Linda.  You make a lot of sense in your posts and speak sincerely and straight from the heart.  Thank you for the book recommendations, they sound interesting to me.

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by ellaangel2

[stump 503]

There is also "The Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan.  I got that from the library recently.  An interesting read.  Certainly don't agree with everything, but it was thought provoking.

[miracleseeker 688]

I would not enjoy a vegetarian diet mostly due to choice and that I'm borderline anemic.   Of course I would be a hypocrite if I said I'm against the killing of animals.  When I was small I used to tell my mom how cruel it was to see chickens getting killed in open markets.  She then asked me if I was in the ocean and a shark swam by do I think it would leave me alone?  She told me as long as it was for survival then it's kill or be killed.   However what I object to is killing an animal as a sport for fun.  The poor thing was in his/her own surroundings and was butchered without a legitimate cause.  That's my opinion.   On that happy note please go back to your fun adventures!

[Peace 174]

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 10:46 PM, stump said:

There is also "The Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan.  I got that from the library recently.  An interesting read.  Certainly don't agree with everything, but it was thought provoking.

I will definitely check out this book.  Thanks for the suggestion.

[LAD 313]

Booked the next bucketlist trip.... seeking out live music in Nashville for a few days!

 

LAD

[stump 503]

43 minutes ago, LAD said:

Booked the next bucketlist trip.... seeking out live music in Nashville for a few days!

 

LAD

Excellent!

 

Need to set up a meeting with my boss to organize the India trip.  Due to the climate there apparently April-September is a no-go time, at least if you want to have some level of enjoyment.  120F and tons of rain sounds downright miserable.  But, October-March is supposed to be decent.  The question will be if we can get the trip and my activities while there sorted out in time to make a February or March trip feasible or if we need to hold off until Oct/Nov/Dec.  I suspect the latter, which would be good for me in other ways.  I really want DW to fly out for a week after my work related stuff is done so we can tour around India.  4Q would be easier than 1Q on our budgets, and give us a lot more time to get passports and such figured out.  

[Peace 174]

I don't want to hijack this thread from its original intent but I wanted to let stump know that I enjoyed Michael Pollan's book "Omnivore's Dilemma" so much that I also read his next book titled "In Defense of Food".  I was amazed how Pollan managed to make the subject of food so interesting.   Fascinating reads.  "In Defense of Food" has changed my way of thinking about grocery shopping and what is called "food" today compared to in previous generations.

[stump 503]

I'm going to raise a batch of meat chickens partly because of that book.  They're supposed to arrive Thursday next week as 2 day old chicks.  Trip to freezer camp set for mid-June.